Zak Stern (a.k.a. Zak The Baker) on his origin story, his bakery, and living on a sailboat
Zak Stern, better known as Zak the Baker, is — as the eponymous business suggests — a baker. Based in Miami's Wynwood neighborhood, Zak makes some of the city's favorite breads and other baked goods (along with one of Mike’s favorite egg salads). He fell in love with baking even after having initially rejected it as a career path (he pursued a life in cheese first, spending time on a goat farm in Israel). He started his business in Miami baking in a used oven in a friend's garage and selling his bread at farmer's markets until he opened Zak The Baker in Wynwood in 2014. In the years since, he's earned James Beard semifinalist nods, been written up by The New York Times, and dabbled in TV. Most importantly, for purposes of this podcast, Zak led a "bread revolution" in Miami (as Mike puts it).
In this episode of Pan Con Podcast, Mike and Zak get into Zak's origin story, his perspectives on entrepreneurship, his time living on a sailboat, and his appreciation of Saabs and chongas. Zak was also generous enough to provide musical accents to the conversation, which we have enhanced in post production through a little editing magic.
Visit and follow Zak The Baker:
https://www.zakthebaker.com/ https://www.instagram.com/zakthebaker/
Listen on: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Soundcloud, Stitcher, iHeartRadio
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Transcript
Zak Stern: Do you have buttons where we do sound effects on this podcast ?
Nicolás Jiménez: We don't but if you want to request sound effects I'll find them and put them.
Michael Beltran: I think we should like just like, that part.
Zak: DJ Laz
Nicolás: It'll just be a lot of DJ Laz.
Zak: I don't actually know what he's saying though.
Michael: Nobody actually knows what he's saying.
[theme music]
Nicolás: You are listening to Pan Con Podcast. It's a podcast sandwich. I’m Nick Jiménez and I’m joined by our usual host chef and chilli cook-off champion, Michael Beltrán. Mike, say hello to the people.
Michael: Hello.
Nicolás: There it is.
Zak: Can I request entrance music? You know like
Michael: I think like, almost like the WWF wrestlers.
[00:48]
Zak: I was gonna be a little bit more subtle and say like a baseball game. You know when they go to bat and they each get to pick their own music, their entrance music?
Michael: Right. But do you want it to be like the cheesy sports... Like Rocky entrance music, or do you want it to be, like, Alice in chains?
Zak: Are there other options?
Michael: Well, I mean, right now the world is your oyster.
Nicolás: Bear in mind that we will have the rights to nothing, so what we'll probably end up doing is finding like a shitty high school kid’s cover of whatever you request.
Michael: Perfect.
Zak: What if I sing it?
Nicolás: Oh, that's good.
Zak: I was gonna look for it on Spotify. Is there a rule that if you use less than 15 seconds...
Nicolás: I think that's made up, but I mean let's just do it.
Zak: Two fists. Yeah. [Zak plays music from his cell phone.] You can introduce me now.
Nicolás: And we are joined by our special guest Zak… Should I call you Zak “The Baker” Stern?
Zak: Yeah.
Nicolás: Zak “Zak the Baker” Stern. Welcome to the podcast in the dungeon.
Michael: You wouldn't think that this is Zak The Baker that's on all the ads at Whole Foods.
Zak: Guys, thank you for having me.
Michael: This has been the greatest lead up to start a podcast ever.
Zak: I think everyone deserves entrance music.
Michael: I think life is perpetually, just like, should be lived with a soundtrack.
Zak: Yeah.
Michael: I think, in my mind, everything is with a soundtrack. There's always like Curtis Mayfield playing for me.
Zak: Yes, what time of the day is Curtis Mayfield playing for you?
Michael: Usually like right at the beginning of service.
Michael [to servers]: Wow! Attacked from every corner. Be careful with the bread.
Zak: And right now we’re being served a plate of charcuterie with freshly baked brioche and it's sitting on the table. It smells great. Sliced through.
Michael: I love the play-by-play.
Zak: Well, I feel like we need to describe what's happening on the table. That looks like some grilled-in-house bread?
Michael: Yeah, country loaf. We call it country loaf. Thanks guys.
Zak [to servers]: I could probably use another one of these whiskeys. One ice; small ice.
Michael: The smallest ice.
Zak: You know what it is? When they put the big ice I feel like it just melts and I'm just drinking water.
Michael: I know. Zak, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.
Nicolás: Let's take a stab at letting people know who Zak is.
Michael: Okay, you do all the things, Zak. Zak the baker, I would say, started almost a revolution of bread in Miami. I know! That's like a big title.
Zak: That's great. That's so cool to hear.
Michael: I think, but I think that's the thing. I think that's what you did. How long has the bakery been open?
Zak: The bakery has been officially open for business since 2012. February 2012. Yes, February 2012, I opened up in the garage.
Michael: In the garage?
Zak: Yeah, wasn't my garage. It was my friend's dad's garage.
Michael: Amazing.
Zak: Yeah, I was renting a room in his house and I said, “Hey, Sandy, would you be okay if I open a bakery in your garage?” He said, “You know, Zak, I think it's a great idea.” But he had no idea what he was signing up for.
Michael: And he signed up for it.
Zak: Well he did. I had roommates too, and they were all supportive in the beginning. But then I started taking on apprentices and they would live in the house in exchange, you know, for room and board. They would work and whatnot and so… ??? 04min23
And it just, I kind of took over the house, and these are dear friends of mine, but there was doing all the door handles and some of the, some of the apprentices would just smoke pot and sit on the couch and eat all the snacks.
Michael: Sounds like a good life.
Zak: I mean, yeah, it was cool but it got a little out of hand because we grew, like we grew really fast.
Michael: You want a rundown on what you're gonna eat before you eat it?
Zak: Yeah, well why don't you run down, chef ?
Michael: I’m gonna run it down. This is a duck and foie paté with a marsala gelée, country paté, chicken liver mousse, Humboldt fog, housemade pickled beets, mamey jam and housemade mustard.
Zak: Delicious. Thank you. L'chaim, l'chaim.
Michael: So, how long were you in the actual garage, until you actually found, like, the space?
Zak: We're doing the story, huh?
Michael: Yeah, no, you gotta talk about the story.
Zak: No foreplay, nothing?
Michael: This is the foreplay. trust me.
Nicolás: You gave us some foreplay with that cell phone music.
Zak: Didn't you guys go to the Marlins game when you were younger and dream of what your entrance music would be?
Michael: I don't know but, like, Marlins games isn't what I relate to entrance music.
Zak: What? Every ballplayer had their... And some would do like ACDC, like the white guys would do ACDC.
Michael: More wrestling. I remember more wrestling from younger. And like the entrance music and like that.
Zak: Yeah.
Michael: I don't remember baseball for that, unless we're talking about Major League, when Charlie Sheen's coming out it's Wild Thing playing.
Zak: Oh Major League the movie.
[Clip from Major League: “They tell us, you're a pitcher. You're sure not much of a dresser. We wear caps and sleeves at this level, son.”]
Michael: Yes, that's what I really related.
Zak: So you like really exaggerated shit.
Michael: Of course, I might not...
Zak: Like wrestling.
Michael: I know we just had dinner for the first time like two weeks ago but yeah, “exaggerated” is definitely my middle name.
Zak: This is our second date, man.
Michael: I know. I feel a little nervous.
Zak: Really?
Michael: I'm a little bit nervous. I'm not sure what to do with myself.
Zak: Okay. I'm kind of flattered by that. So, so let's just dive right in
Michael: Yeah dive into the story. Tell people.
Zak: What kind of whiskey is this ?
Todd: It’s the Laphroaig you were having before.
Zak: How did you know? You guys are so good.
Michael: It’s called service.
Zak: Attention to detail.
Michael: It’s called service. Thanks Todd!
Zak: Thank you.
Michael: Actually Todd’s stage name is Cotton Candy. I don't know if you knew that.
Zak: Well, we're gonna get into that later or we’re just gonna leave that there?
Michael: That's why I said this is just the foreplay we'll get into the meat later.
[06:53]
Todd: I told you it depends on the stage I’m on, chef.
Michael: Right I know, Cotton Candy or Bubblegum.
Zak: Oh lord. I guess you'll unpack that a little later after a few more Laphroaig.
Michael: Yeah.
Zak: So, uh, what was the question? Are you the interviewer?
Nicolás: Is this what you call interviewing ?
Zak: No it’s not what I meant, if you are you're doing a great job.
Michael: Thank you, No one has ever called me an interviewer, but my name is on the sandwich, it’s how we say it. So, I'm supposed to ask questions. I'm supposed to be prepared. I feel like my preparedness here is because I've eaten your food several times.
Zak: Okay
Michael: That's how prepared I am for this podcast
Zak: Okay
Michael: But usually, I'm very unprepared
Zak: Was I supposed to do something to prepare ?
Michael: No absolutely not actually there was a. The best story ever is when a guest came with notes, and I...
Zak: I didn't bring notes.
Michael: Good.
Zak: Okay.
Michael: I mean, then I would be very concerned if you came with notes.
Zak: I could bring notes though.
Michael: Don't though.
Zak: You guys didn’t really tell me much.
Michael: Yeah, well, Nick, that's his job.
Zak: Well done Nick.
Michael: He's supposed to set things up and give people information.
Nick: I did terribly. Awful awful job.
Michael: Nick does great work. Nice work Nick.
Zak: What’s this ?
Michael: Country paté. So, when you were in the garage, and then people were smoking pot on the actual couch. When was the point, after 2012 that you went to an actual space?
Zak: It was about a year or so, and my coolers gave out because it was summertime and I’m in the garage and there's no AC.
Michael: That’s like the worst.
Zak: And my goats kept getting out of their fence. They were not baby goats anymore. They were big goats and they were getting horny. And you know, we all know what horny boy goats are like.
Michael: I actually don't need much interaction with, with goats, but I can only imagine.
Zak: I'm sure you can. Yeah, so I won't. I don't even need to go there, but so the goats kept getting out and, and the coolers were starting to break down. And my roommates, who are my dear friends, they were really, they had enough with me and the apprentices and the dough. And I think the septic tank was filling up and they blamed that on me too because apparently we were pooping too much.
Michael: Could have happened.
Zak: It's possible I'm not saying, I'm not saying that, you know, I know for sure it wasn't...
Michael: But you're not accepting it either.
Zak: I mean we don't know.
Michael: Yeah there's no conclusive evidence.
Zak: And coincidentally, my roommate, dear friend Kevin, love you brother, got a Chikungunya, some kind of rare disease that might have been connected to the feces, but the point of this story is, it was time to go, you know, everyone has their, their cycle, and after one year, because it grew so fast man, really, it grew so fast I started the farmers market, and I was just this hipping looky guy with, I used to wear suspenders, and I had a fedora, I mean I was all up in the drama. And I'd come with fresh bread and it was really romantic and I loved being a cartoon character, I just had so much fun telling that story. But it was legit I mean the bread was good and it was fresh and it's right out of the oven. And it just, just took off. And so you can't really scale up in a garage.
Michael: Right.
Zak: And so about that time I just, I was really, I remember the day vividly because my coolers went down, and for dough, to not have any type control is a real problem. And I needed to find a place to go and I got really lucky, like the gods of the bread were shining down on me that day, and they connected me with a gentleman who has a commissary in Hialeah. And I called him and I was there the next day, like I transferred...
Michael: The motherland Hialeah.
Zak: Yeah.
Michael: Providing for everyone at all times
Zak: Deep in it right near red white and blue. And this gentleman... Do we name names on this podcast? I don't want to name names.
Zak: This gentleman let me in, and he really saved us like really by giving, he happened to have a stone oven, a three deck, it was a piece of crap but it worked. Stone oven, and I baked there for almost two years, and doing, doing the night bakes and. Yeah. And going to red white and blue and that was it, the commissary out in Hialeah.
Zak: And, and then once, once we outgrew that place, that's when I took the big leap into Wynwood and got my own retail...
Michael: Three years.
Zak: I don't know years, it all gets so blended together I'm not really good at years, rounded, rounded let's just say, about a year in the garage, about two years in the commissary, and then about three years in the first spot in Wynwood which we then outgrew again and then now where we are. It's been three years or so, like it's hard to keep track it's been really.
Michael: Yeah it becomes like, all very foggy.
Zak: A lot happened since then.
Michael: Life happens.
Zak: Tell me about it, man.
Michael: Yeah, life happens.
Zak: Well yeah we should have a drink on that one.
Michael: Yeah.
Zak: Cheers to life happening for the past. The past eight years, it's been a lot of life man I feel like if we should sit back and take a drink on that one.
Michael: Eight years so, we're looking back at 2012, 2013. I think that's like, back when I started, when I went to...
Zak: When did you start? When did you open?
Michael: We turn five in January.
Zak: Oh, okay.
Michael: Yeah, so, but before that I worked at Cypress Room for three years.
Zak: That’s why we are reminiscing on that.
Michael: Yeah. Three years and before that I worked for Norman’s so, you know, I mean, I like the...The Zak The Baker bread has always been like around me, you know, and like I told you the other day when we had dinner, like, I don't really understand babka very well.
And I feel like your babka and your egg salad got me through a large portion of quarantine this year.
Zak: The babka and the egg salad?
Michael: Yeah, I love fucking egg salad. Egg salad’s my jam, and like no one, it’s crazy how often you can put egg salad on a menu and no one orders it.
Zak: Yes, you don't go to a restaurant to get egg salad dude
Michael: I get salad sandwiches, all the time.
Zak: Yeah, but you don't go to Ariete to get it.
Michael: No, but you go to a diner.
Zak: Is that how you pronounce it?
Michael: Yeah. Ariete.
Zak: I didn't want to, you know...
Michael: No, you nailed it.
Zak: No, no way I'm gonna go to Ariete... It could have been Ariete.
Michael: It could be pronounced both ways. It's really whatever makes you happy.
Zak: I don't want to come off as seeming like uneducated.
Michael: No, but it's not an education thing. Honestly if you were to say it in Spanish it’s Ariete, sounds weird.
Zak: I can do that.
Michael: I know but every time people do that it sounds like a Daddy Yankee song. That bothers me.
Zak: Now's the time, now's the time where you press the button and the music comes in.
[Singing]
Michael: Wait, but serious question. Before you were baking in a garage, where did this start? Bread had to start somewhere.
Zak: Yeah, it started in pharmacy school. I was in pharmacy school and I was 22 and I'd been in school I don't know for like 10, 12 … most of my life, I've been in school. And at some point, I'm just like, ”Man, am I gonna keep doing this? Am I just gonna keep going to school?” And my life just felt boring.
Right now the lights are flickering as I speak about my life being boring. They came back on.
Michael: The Red Room.
Zak: Yeah, this place is fucking creepy dude.
L'chaim L'chaim Cheers.
So yeah, I just switched. I switched. And I was privileged enough to be able to drop out of school, and to, to take a risk. That's what I think. I know there's a lot of people throwing the word “privilege” around I was privileged. I was able to withdraw from school and take a risk to start working on farms that had no guarantee. I mean, I would have made a good salary as a pharmacist, would have been bored and depressed, but I would have been stable. Anyway, long story short, I became a baker and I learned by working on farms. I actually studied cheese, mostly, on these farms and bread as well. And I learned a lot about how to work my ass off, how to work hard from sunup to sundown, that country wisdom that like, that farmer mentality that permeated. I learned a lot about that.
Michael: Was that moment you said “I just want to make bread?”
Zak: Oh no, when I was learning how to be a baker, I’m like “Hell no I'm not gonna become a baker. These guys have to wake up so early.” The thing was when I came back to Miami it's what I knew how to do. I knew how to bake bread I knew how to make cheese and so I started baking bread in the garage and I went up and I got four French Alpine goats from Central Florida and that was the idea. I'm going to do what I know how to do. I know how to make cheese and I know how to make bread, and I'm going to make a living out of this. I just didn't realize how challenging that life was going to be.
Michael: Right.
Zak: I wonder if I knew, like, would I do it again? I probably would. I was 25, 26. And I had no girlfriend and I had no debt and I had, I mean, I threw my whole self into it.
Michael: Right. And that's when you started, 2012 was around that time right?
Zak: 2012 is when I started yeah, February.
Michael: 26, 27 years old?
Zak: Yeah, I was young and my prostate was like size of a quarter.
Michael: I mean, so now it's been what? Eight years?
Zak: Yeah, I mean it's, I can still... I have a good, you know, flow. I mean...
Nicolás: You want to make sure you’re about four young prostates from the mic.
Michael: Now we're using young prostates as a gauge of where to talk into the mic.
Zak: But, yeah I've aged a lot though.
Michael: Yeah, I mean the industry ages you.
Zak: Those eight years in the industry aged the shit out of me. Oh my God. I feel like an old man. I feel decrepit now. I'm broken.
Michael: And I feel like this year ages you like times 4.
Zak: Tell me about it.
Michael: Yeah.
Zak: Yeah. I'm gonna go into retirement in like five years. But that's not true. I'm a maniac worker. I love working.
Michael: Well, I mean you like your job.
Zak: I love my job.
Michael: That's why. I mean if you were to do... If you were to think back about it, it's fucking hard. You’d still do it again because you like it.
Zak: Really like it's so much fun. It's so enjoyable. I mean, granted, I am stressed a lot of the day. And I've got a scowl as well. You know what I mean? Like I wake up, I get to work. I haven't eaten anything yet and I'm just tense as hell. My poor team. And all I can see is what's wrong. I really, I really need to eat food before I get to work.
Michael: You ever think about what's right?
Zak: Yeah, once I’ve eaten, then a good cup of coffee and a decent poop and then I'm flying, man, but, I don't know I'm moody. I'm like, I’m pretty human.
Michael: I had to tell you, the best part of that dinner we had a couple weeks ago was… The biggest common denominator in the last year, I feel, was that sense of being like, “Why am I... Why do I have to go through this? Why do I have to, like, all these things?” And realize, I mean, it's not just us. It's fucking everybody. They had to deal with this absolutely incredibly fucked up year. And do it like... and everyone's situation is different. You know, your business is very different than my business and, you know, everyone at that table had a very different perspective because their businesses were affected differently, but the common denominator was, everyone was affected.
Zak: Yeah.
Michael: And everyone was going through it, and everyone has, like, some kind of emotional feeling towards it. And I think the biggest thing I appreciated from that dinner was just, fucking laughing. Yeah, fucking off like having a good time, because it's always like we have to be so straight edge and so like, for survival.
Zak: Yeah, you feel like you have to be straight-edge to survive?
Michael: Well, I feel like you have to be on your ones and twos in order to survive.
Zak: What happens if you're on your threes and fours?
Michael: Who knows? Who knows? I think that, as the head of any kind of company or whatever you do like, you need to know all the things that are happening you need to try to make sure everything's going well. And then this year, it's like, I mean... I feel like if there was one slip up in any kind of corner, then we could be fucked and we could not...
Zak: Dude, that's a lot of pressure.
Michael: Yeah, it's a lot of pressure. But I feel like everyone at the table was kind of feeling that kind of pressure in a different way.
Zak: Yeah.
Michael: You know, and that's why I appreciated the fact that we were just having a good time, on a day that everyone was open.
Zak: It's always nice to get drunk with a bunch of industry folk.
Michael: That's true. That is true. And eat good food and drink a lot.
Zak: I feel the pressure, man. As someone who is leading a team, and responsible for 60,70 something people. And for the books and for the legality and for the morale and for the community and for...
I feel the pressure. I feel a lot of pressure, actually.
So when you say that being on your ones and twos, I can relate to that.
Michael: That morale thing. That's a tough one.
Zak: That’s a tricky one.
Michael: Well, especially now I feel like it's always tough motivating people. People are easily unmotivated I think. They fall into like, this like... because our jobs are very, like, repetitive.
Zak: Yeah.
Michael: You know, we do the same moves every day at the same time every day, and even more so in baking, I feel like...
Zak: Very repetitive.
Michael: You know, you got to do the same things because the quality needs to be the same, needs to be consistent and so on and so on. So, that kind of like drags people to a place that they're unmotivated, they're just, they can become very robotic in this time. How do you motivate people for what, to put food in a takeout bag like. For me, it was tough because our motivation here has always been, we want to serve the best food in the country. We want to serve that, now we've got to put it into a box. It’s just mindfuck for a lot of people.
Zak: So what do you do?
Michael: Just be there for people as much as possible. Because, I mean what else is there really to do? You could tell them what the dream is on the other side but you yourself don't know when the other side is going to happen or what it really looks like.
Zak: Yeah. No, we don't have it, there's no horizon. There's no horizon, like, really. No one, no one can tell us on this date, when we're gonna be back to what you knew as normal.
Michael: So we don't. I mean we don't know, this new normal idea. I mean, this is what we're gonna live in for a long period of time.
Zak: Yeah, I agree. I don't know, for me, and I certainly don't have the answer but it's just to stay focused on the mission that we're here for something bigger than ourselves. You know, you can work anywhere in Miami, and you can get another job for the same pay and whatnot, but you came here for a reason because we're an independent local spot that's focused on the mission. There's no one kind of pushing us away from what our mission is. And so, staying focused on that mission, as something bigger than yourself. That's helpful, I think.
Michael: In the morale aspect, you can coach people to morale, but what about you? Your own morale? Because like, me personally, I struggled with that a lot. I know that my… I'm a competitor by nature.
Zak: Yeah.
Michael: I want to compete. I want to win. I'm a bad loser. I'm okay with that, saying that out loud. I don't, you know, like I'm a bad loser. That's why I like to box because you have to win or you fucking lose.
Zak: Yeah.
Michael: You know like, and this year you're only, I feel like we're only competing against ourselves. You know, we're not... I don't want to compete against my neighbour. I want my neighbour to succeed, I want my neighbour to survive.
Zak: Yeah.
Michael: You know, so the idea for me morale wise during the entire quarantine was like, “We just need to be better than what we were on the other side.”
Zak: Okay. And how's it going?
Michael: Yeah, we are.
Zak: Oh, killer.
Michael: Like, without a doubt.
Zak: So you have a new measuring stick?
Michael: Yeah, and every day it's like, “How do we improve on that. But then my question to you is, how do you keep your own morale to a place that drives you every single day?”
Zak: How do I keep my own morale to a place that drives me every day?
Michael: That drive, that thing that you want to coach other people to believe in the vision.
Zak: Right. Yeah.
Michael: This year the vision has been foggy for everyone.
Zak: Yeah, but it's hard to explain. I... There's something inside me. That is never satisfied and is always wanting to be better. And once we get to better there's a new better. And it's just always pushing and it's not that I'm a dissatisfied person. It's just I like reaching to see how far we can go. So there's this never ending dissatisfaction of just wanting to reach for more, wanting to push, wanting to be better and I can't explain. I don't know where that... it's probably something that's deeply rooted inside of me. That's been programmed through years of socialization and and trauma, but it's inside me. It's hardcore.
Michael: Do you often feel like your team doesn't get it the same way you get it?
Zak: Of course they don't get it. How could they possibly? It's... Sometimes I don't even get it. I mean, how often are you 100 percent self aware of what you're thinking? And then, that's just the conscious. What about the subconscious? That's also, you know, pushing you behind it. Of course they don't get it. But I mean I really... I need them to. There's going to be times where they don't get what I'm talking about. There's going to be times where they disagree with what I'm talking about. There's going to be times where they're, they have no clue what the hell I'm saying, but I need them... As their leader I need them to be behind me, and to trust me, even if I fail and there's gonna... I'm not afraid of that. Like, we fail all the time and I need them to be behind me. Even if I fail and then we say okay we fail we fail quickly then we move on to the next. I need them, I need them behind me.